This Episode Features:
(26:16) Rod Mickleburgh, veteran BC journalist and co-author, reveals stories from his collaboration with John Horgan on the late premier’s memoir. Mickleburgh conducted final interviews from Horgan’s hospital bed in Germany, capturing candid reflections about the premier’s year at Ocean Falls Pulp Mill, his famous bus rides from Victoria to Sooke, his collaborative approach with the Green Party, and what made him different from typical politicians.
(10:01) Ceri Peacey, of the Hamilton Wetlands and Forest Preservation Society, discusses the urgent mission to raise $7.5 million by late January to permanently protect Hamilton Marsh and surrounding forest in Parksville Qualicum Beach. The 360-hectare property—comparable to Stanley Park—contains rare coastal Douglas fir ecosystem and serves as the largest water body in the French Creek watershed, providing critical habitat for amphibians, birds, and wildlife across Vancouver Island.
(06:54) 54-40 Contest winners, Jason Minter of Nanaimo and Theresa McManus of New Westminster.
Episode Quotes:
“There isn’t a single reason not to preserve the whole thing… This deal has to come through. I don’t have another 20 years in me to keep up the fight, but I don’t think that I will rest eternally until the whole 360 hectares have been preserved.” – Ceri Peacey
“He was the genuine article and people sensed that. And we all know the number of people would say, ‘I don’t like the NDP, but I liked John Horgan’ because they sensed he was genuine, not just your ordinary politician.” – Rod Mickleburgh
Visit hamiltonwetlands.com to donate or pledge support for this critical Vancouver Island conservation project.
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Transcription:
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Rockin’ Rhonda & The Uptown Blues Band: Here comes Peter. Here comes Dave. Oh listen. Bringing stories, making waves. No missing. Spinning tales in the podcast cave. So much laughs and insights everywhere. Peter and Dave, they’re on the mics. Alright, join the ride. It’s gonna feel just right.
Peter McCully: Welcome back to the Pulse Community Podcast. This is where we bring you a variety of stories with emphasis on the people of the mid Vancouver Island region. I am Peter McCully.
Dave Graham: And I’m Dave Graham. With another seaside summer left to memories, the brightest of nature’s fall colours are mostly gone, and Thanksgiving is down to leftovers in the fridge and lingering thoughts of gratitude and reflection.
Dave, it sounds to me like you just had too much turkey. And yes, I am grateful for stretchy pants, but truly this time of year, so beautifully illustrated by the fall of the leaves signaling nature’s retreat at the onset of cooler weather, it has me contemplating life. And then again, maybe that’s just part of growing up.
Peter McCully: Well, you’re getting a little deep for me today, Dave, but as for growing up, that’s a topic for another day because I refuse to grow up. On this episode, we’re not lacking in meaningful conversations, including one with Ceri Peacey speaking on behalf of the Hamilton Wetlands and Forest Preservation Society. Ceri tells us they have to act quickly to save 360 acres of vital habitat.
Dave Graham: Yes, they have just a few months in which to raise $7.5 million in order to make the deal. We are talking about securing the Hamilton Marsh and surrounding forest for permanent conservation.
Ceri Peacey: There was a time that there were so many amphibians crossing the road that they couldn’t drive on it. That’s long gone. We still have amphibians. We still have all the life that depends on it, and the truth is we share the planet with wildlife and they need it because it’s a fairly mature forest. Ideally, eventually it’ll be an old growth forest within about a hundred years, and I’d like to live long enough to see that, but I doubt it.
Peter McCully: Ceri Peacey joins us shortly. We’ll also be speaking with author Rod Mickleburgh, who co-authored a deeply personal memoir with the late BC Premier John Horgan.
Dave Graham: The book is called “John Horgan in His Own Words,” and it captures something special about a leader who never forgot where he came from. Here’s Rod, talking about one of John Horgan’s unique habits.
Rod Mickleburgh: We had this idea of riding the bus and there he would be. He had a chance to talk to people one-on-one, and they knew he was there. There was nothing riding—it was a good pun—there was nothing riding on it. He enjoyed them. He only finally stopped because once he became premier, it was a little more difficult and so on. But I don’t know many politicians that would do that.
Peter McCully: More with Rod Mickleburgh later in the podcast. But first, Dave, we have some exciting news to share about new podcasts joining the Pulse Community family.
Dave Graham: Yes, we are expanding. Starting this week, you’ll find some great new content at thepulsecommunity.ca.
Peter McCully: We have Sean Wood and Joel Grenz hosting their new podcast, “Non-Partisan Hacks.” Sean and Joel are Parksville city councillors, and their podcast will take you behind the scenes of how government really works without the spin, the shouting, or the partisanship. On this week’s edition, they’ll be chatting with Thomas Bevin, who is the CEO of the Island Rail Corridor Foundation.
Dave Graham: I appreciate them using the word “hacks” in the title. That’s a kind of self-awareness we could maybe use a little more of in government. Peter, did you not spend some time serving in municipal politics?
Peter McCully: Well, indeed I did. What about you, Dave? Ever consider running?
Dave Graham: Oh, no. I’m thin-skinned, disorganized, and my idea of setting a budget involves more hope than math. So, no, I’ll take a pass.
Peter McCully: Another addition to the Pulse Community is our radio archaeology series where we dip deep into radio history and pull out some classics. Our first episode is from the original “Gunsmoke” radio series starring William Conrad as Matt Dillon, United States Marshal.
Coombs Candy Walk Announcement: Sandra here from the Arrowsmith Community Recreation Association, ACRA for short. The 56th annual Coombs Candy Walk will take place at the Coombs Fairgrounds on Friday, October 31st from 6:00 to 8:00 PM. This year’s theme is “Midnight at the Library.” Come trick-or-treat through child-friendly storybook-themed rooms. Try out the old-fashioned cakewalk. Admire the pumpkins. Take your picture in the photo booth. Grab a snack at the concession and stay for the fireworks at 8:00 PM. There will also be a haunted barn for those looking for something a little spookier. Admission is by donation. This event is only made possible through the incredible effort of community volunteers with support from ACRA, Arrowsmith Agricultural Association, the RDN and other local businesses. For more information or to sign up to volunteer, check out arrowsmithrecreation.ca. I hope to see you at the annual Coombs Candy Walk on October 31st.
Fireside Books Advertisement: There’s exciting news for book lovers. Fireside Books in Parksville now has a second location in Port Alberni. The Bookwyrm. Used books are just $5 each, and be sure to ask about their volume discounts. The Bookwyrm, on the corner of Redford and Anderson, open seven days a week from 10 to 5. Fireside Books at 464 Island Highway East in Parksville is a book dragon’s dream come true. Browse their extensive collection weekdays from 9 to 6 and weekends 10 to 5. Both locations make growing your personal library easier than ever. New books, used books, activity books, puzzle books, and much more. Order online at firesidebooks.ca and your books will be waiting when you arrive. Ask about returning books for a book credit. Fireside Books and The Bookwyrm—two locations, one amazing adventure in browsing.
Ian Lindsay Advertisement: Ian Lindsay of Lindsay and Associates has played an active role in the local community since 1979. He has been with RE/MAX, Vancouver Island’s most advanced real estate business network, since 1996, marketing and selling residential, rural, strata, recreational, investment, and project development real estate. Ian has received several awards recognizing his exceptional community commitment locally, as well as awards for outstanding performance and achievement from both RE/MAX International and the Vancouver Island Real Estate Board. You’ll find true real estate professionals at ianlindsay.ca.
Peter McCully: Good afternoon. Hey Jason, it’s Peter McCully calling from the Pulse Community Podcast.
Jason Minter: Hey Peter. I was just reading your email. I was just in the middle of replying back to you. Thanks firstly for entering the contest and listening to the podcast. I wanted to let you know that you’re one of the two lucky names that we pulled from Dave’s hat, actually—that’s what we do. We put them all in Dave’s hat.
Peter McCully: Dave’s already got my new favourite hat. It’s hopefully not like a Yankees hat, is it?
Jason Minter: No, I think it’s a Blue Jays hat actually.
Peter McCully: Perfect. That’s amazing. It’s funny ’cause me and my buddy were talking about 54-40 not too long ago. We’ve done a couple of shows from different concerts here. In fact, we’re actually heading back to Nanaimo from seeing Hailstorm last night and Apocalyptica. So now all of a sudden another concert coming up—that’s awesome.
Peter McCully: So what we’ve got for you is the new album, “Porto.” You probably heard a few selections from it on the podcast?
Jason Minter: A hundred percent.
Peter McCully: That is a band-signed album on vinyl.
Jason Minter: My son actually collects signed vinyl, so he’ll love that. He’s sitting here with me.
Peter McCully: And we’ve also got the album “A Difference” for you and a 54-40 T-shirt.
Jason Minter: Oh, that’s awesome. That’s a good Thanksgiving, isn’t it?
Peter McCully: That’s a great Thanksgiving. That vinyl, he’s gonna absolutely love it.
Peter McCully: We’re happy we could help make your weekend, Jason.
Jason Minter: Well, you’ve done more than make the weekend. That is absolutely amazing. We’re big 54-40 fans in our house. We’re big on the CanCon. We’ve done a couple of shows this year already, so we’re looking forward to that one too. Thanks for the call. I appreciate it.
Peter McCully: Hi, is Theresa there?
Theresa McManus: Yes it is. Hi Peter. How are you?
Peter McCully: I’m doing pretty well. You saw me on your call display, I guess?
Theresa McManus: I did. I was driving over to get some groceries, so I’m just waiting in the parking lot.
Peter McCully: You know why I am calling? We had two prize packs to give away. One is the new 54-40 album, “Porto,” which is the band-signed album on vinyl.
Theresa McManus: I have a huge collection of 54-40 CDs, but I don’t have that one. So I was at the show at the Commodore last night. It was wonderful. So that’s just wonderful to get that. And it was interesting when you were talking about, on your show, you had asked him about multi-generational, and when I went to the concert last night, I actually went with my two sons and for one of them it was the first time he had seen them live. So it was kind of a full-circle moment there. Thank you so much.
Peter McCully: We appreciate you listening to the Pulse Community Podcast.
Theresa McManus: Yeah, it was really entertaining. I’ll definitely be listening again.
Peter McCully: Thanks Theresa.
Theresa McManus: Take care.
Dave Graham: Oh, we do enjoy giving away prizes here at the Pulse Community Podcast, especially when we know that the prize is ending up in the right hands. Just as an aside, Theresa, one of our winners, she’s such a fan of 54-40, she included the band’s name in her email address. That’s just a little indicator of her enthusiasm. We love that. You can keep up with the latest giveaways and upcoming guests by subscribing to our newsletter. Just go to our website. Oh, while I’m at it, if you need to make an announcement or voice an opinion, go to our site to voice or type your message—thepulsecommunity.ca.
Peter McCully: Ceri Peacey reached out to us to help spread the news about the Hamilton Marsh. The deadline for action makes her message urgent. Here’s Marilyn.
Marilyn: In the green room is Ceri Peacey of the Hamilton Wetlands and Forest Preservation Society to talk about the efforts to purchase the Hamilton Marsh and the surrounding forest—360 hectares for permanent conservation. $7.5 million will need to be raised to secure the property.
Dave Graham: Thank you for being on the Pulse Community Podcast.
Ceri Peacey: You’re so welcome. Anytime with you is a good time, Dave.
Dave Graham: Ceri, you have been fighting to preserve Hamilton Marsh for 20 years. Let’s identify where we’re talking about.
Ceri Peacey: So, Hamilton Marsh is five minutes from Qualicum Beach. As you’re heading out the highway towards Port Alberni, you hang right at the bottom of the first hill and drive about a mile and you’re there.
Dave Graham: And can you paint a picture of the journey in, and then what the opening reveals when you’re there?
Ceri Peacey: You’ll know you’re in the right spot ’cause there’s a Hamilton Marsh sign on one of the trees. It’s a blocked-off parking lot. And when you walk in, you’re walking into a rare remaining amount of the coastal Douglas fir ecosystem. So the trails are shaded. The plant life is great and it just feels really different on a hot day. And when you get to the very end, it opens up where the dock is and it’s like a huge football field. And right now it looks like a grassy one because it’s the end of a drought. For context, 360 hectares is just short of the size of Stanley Park.
Dave Graham: What first drew you to this place?
Ceri Peacey: Logging tape drew me to this place. I say that because where I live, our neighbourhood had been freshly logged and I saw the ribbons go up on the trees out there, and I thought to myself, “That doesn’t seem right.” And I started asking questions. I learned so much. It was the beginning of the end of my ignorance about how we are interdependent on the planet and ecosystems. We need each other. I learned that with Hamilton Marsh.
Dave Graham: So a deal has been reached. Can you talk a little bit about the nature of that deal and the goal that has brought us talking together today?
Ceri Peacey: Twenty years ago when we started to raise awareness about Hamilton Marsh, there was a deal that was struck for about, I think, in 2009, and that was for a wetland and a buffer. A few years ago, we caught wind that there were conversations going on and there’s a cone of silence, so you never know what’s really happening. At that point, we started making the noise that if we educated the public and said, “If there’s a deal struck, and it’s for a wetland and a buffer, we want you to know why that would be inadequate.” And we want to raise the will to preserve the entire 360 hectares. And that’s because the forest and the wetland are interdependent on each other. Beyond the actual wetland are other vernal pools that are critical to habitat. So fast forward to about a month ago when the RDN reached out and said, “We think we have a deal for 360 hectares.” And I went, “Are you kidding me?” So it’s very thrilling. It takes a lot of will to put that kind of deal together. It’s a real short window of time to raise $7.5 million—late January. The funds all have to be in place and if we don’t reach that goal, the deal falls apart.
Dave Graham: Okay. Do we have some funding partners?
Ceri Peacey: The RDN is, I would say, the people in charge of all the funding and negotiations. We look to be a funding partner along with Nanaimo Area Land Trust and Mount Arrowsmith Biosphere Region. That was the plan, but what we found was our best skill is in the storytelling. And so we will now channel the funds to NALT, and NALT will do what it does best and leverage the donations. And MABR also, along with the RDN, they’re looking at, I think, the bigger funders like Habitat Conservation Trust Fund and so on and so forth. One of the things I’ve been able to do through the years is network, and I know so many people, and one of them is Ducks Unlimited. They have a banquet coming up on the eighth and we’ll be featured there. Everything’s changed since Trump took over. Normally you would have a certain level of funding up from the States for every dollar given, so that’s fallen apart, but that doesn’t mean the ducks aren’t still on it. It’s all one day at a time. I think with the tiny window and a large amount of money, there’s never been more pressure. And in my little heart, even more pressure. But I tend to believe where there’s a will, there’s a way. And I also believe that Oceanside has lots of people who have lots of money. I think it’s on us to leave a legacy that makes a difference and that will be preserving Hamilton Marsh.
Dave Graham: Can we bring this into more of a practical reality for folks who may not be familiar with this place, may be unfamiliar with the good things that such a place does for the environment and ultimately for us, the role that it plays in our lives. Can you bring that home a little more closely?
Ceri Peacey: The wetland itself at 36 hectares is sizable. It’s Little Hamilton Marsh. The big Hamilton Marsh was at Pheasant Glen Golf Course. This marsh has a large amount of peat bog in it, and that is the most effective carbon sequestration that exists as far as ecosystems go. When we look at life, we take the birds for granted, but they all need places to migrate through and to nest in. It’s the same with all the wildlife. Our website’s quite comprehensive for what’s been noted there. The thing about being in the forest, it’s good for mind, body, and soul. It is the best place to unwind, so it’s really good for the humans. But the other thing is, it is the largest body of water in the French Creek watershed on which thousands rely. Wetlands don’t just sequester water, they filter water, and they hold water in times of drought, and they hold water when it’s flooding, and they’re just magic. They’ve been referred to as the lungs of the earth.
Dave Graham: How would you describe your relationship to this place?
Ceri Peacey: Every time I get asked a question like that, my eyes fill up with tears and I go quiet for a minute. I feel that when I discovered Hamilton Marsh and started asking questions about all the values, there isn’t a single reason not to preserve the whole thing. I’ve been told a lot of things through the years. One is, “We can’t possibly afford it all.” And the other one is “Don’t be married to the outcome.” To preserve my sanity and all, I’m incapable of that. I actually—this deal has to come through. I don’t have another 20 years in me to keep up the fight, but I don’t think that I will rest eternally until the whole 360 hectares have been preserved.
Dave Graham: You and I have crossed paths a time or two over the years, and as I have grown to know you a little bit more and this place a little bit better, I’ve come to realize that, my goodness, could there have been a better person than you doing what you’re doing right now?
Ceri Peacey: My attachment is visceral. It is complete. It is unshakeable, and I didn’t imagine it would be 20 years that we could get this close to a goal and it has to happen. It just does.
Dave Graham: How has the conservation movement and public awareness around wetlands evolved over the past 20 years of your advocacy? Are people more receptive now, I ask, hopefully?
Ceri Peacey: I feel like the world is divided into two groups of people—those that get it and those that don’t. It’s just like whenever they make a decision, the environment is at the bottom of the equation. It’s all about jobs or about housing and all these things. I know many people who get it and who are on side and know that we need to preserve specifically that wildland, but we need to preserve more wild areas. So it’s hard to say, but I’ve never had someone be there who didn’t love it.
Dave Graham: The Friends of French Creek Conservation Society supported your efforts for years before you formed your own society. What was the trigger for that?
Ceri Peacey: There was a group of us who got together and we decided that as long as you are thinking “Friends of French Creek” as far as the title goes, you are not thinking “Hamilton Marsh.” They are all about the French Creek water, and Hamilton Marsh is the largest body of water within the French Creek watershed. It was a wonderful partnership and they handled all of the society business that comes with it. So just for under three years, we’ve been our own entity, but that has really helped to raise awareness. There’s more about Hamilton Marsh that people know. It wasn’t like a moody divorce or anything. We still love each other. And you know what? All the stewardship groups, whether it’s Arrowsmith Naturalist, Friends of French Creek, MABR, I could go on—they’re all connected and united in the cause. We’re never alone. Qualicum First Nation, we had Chief Recalma come out and they support the concept of saving the entire 360 hectares. Actually, I can’t think of anyone who doesn’t support it, but that support still requires money, and that’s what we need.
Dave Graham: Dare we talk a little bit about the future, maybe even 10, 20 years down the road from where we are now and what this place might be like and the experiences people will have then, and what kind of wildlife will be there. That’s a loaded question, isn’t it?
Ceri Peacey: That’s a huge question. Interestingly, we’re collecting stories from people who have known Hamilton Marsh for longer than we have, and there was a time that there were so many amphibians crossing the road that they couldn’t drive on it. That’s long gone. We still have amphibians. We still have all the life that depends on it. And I have to say, a lot of times we’re always worried about people and having parks, but the truth is we share the planet with wildlife and they need it because it’s a fairly mature forest. Ideally, eventually it’ll be an old growth forest within about a hundred years, and I’d like to live long enough to see that, but I doubt it. I just think keep on preserving it.
Dave Graham: Did you want to speak at all in terms of what the future could bring or might bring in terms of educating, using for recreation, research, any other roles that the marsh might play?
Ceri Peacey: I’m glad you mentioned research. Mount Arrowsmith Biosphere Region Research Institute, they do excellent studies and in earlier years, kids came and they identified bugs and they became certified bug detectives. More recently, there’s been a thing called bug bingo. That whole thing teaches you how even the tiniest element at the marsh is the bottom of the food chain, the base of the food web, and the studies that have been done there—Canadian Wildlife Service back in the day did one on bird marshes, which is how we know it’s the most prolific one in the area. There have been studies on dragonflies. Apparently we have about 30 species, and we have a report called the Odonata of Hamilton Marsh, which is dragonflies and that kind of thing. I’m not an expert. It’s been well studied and it should be more studied.
Dave Graham: How can people help? Where do they need to go? What do they need to do?
Ceri Peacey: Show me the money, honey. Where’s the cheddar? We need it all. So our website is in flux, being updated. We do have a button on the homepage that if you click on it, you can donate directly to Nanaimo Area Land Trust. And right now they have a fund-matching campaign, so it’s a good time to do it. Another thing that we’re going to do, because usually when any land trust is collecting money, if for any reason the deal doesn’t complete, the money is safe, but maybe for another conservation effort. We’re also trying to arrange something where people can fill out pledge forms. The ones that only want their money to go to Hamilton Marsh, we would tally that up and then they would donate it closer to the date. First, go and visit it, and second, donate. Fundraise if you like. We could sure use extra help fundraising.
Peter McCully: Our thanks to Ceri Peacey for joining us and for the reminder to appreciate what we have. The work that Ceri and the Hamilton Wetlands and Forest Preservation Society are doing can make a difference for future generations.
Dave Graham: But they won’t get there without some significant support. If you want to help, a good place to start is hamiltonwetlands.com. This is the Pulse Community Podcast, available on Amazon, iHeart, Apple, TikTok, and YouTube. Plus, we’re on Facebook and Instagram.
Peter McCully: Stay tuned. Coming to a future Pulse podcast, the one and only Roy Henry Vickers. To say he is an artist doesn’t quite do him justice. He was made a Member of the Order of Canada for his outstanding achievements, dedication to the community and service to the nation.
Dave Graham: Oh, we could spend the next few minutes talking about that man’s accomplishments. Suffice it to say Roy Henry Vickers will be on an upcoming episode to talk about his new colouring book. It contains some of his most famous images, and the book is designed to be suitable for colourists of all ages.
Peter McCully: Also slated to appear soon on the Pulse Community Podcast, Paul Nicklen of Nanoose Bay, co-founder of sealegacy.org. Paul will be here to chat about his photography, the state of the environment, and a new book he will be publishing that you can be a part of.
PQ Foundation Announcement: Hi, Peter and Dave and hello to everyone tuning in to the Pulse. I’m Charlene Smith, the executive director of the Parksville Qualicum Community Foundation, and I’m here with a reminder that the fall 2025 neighbourhood small grants are now open from September 15th until October 31st. These grants are for everyday residents of the Parksville, Qualicum Beach and surrounding Oceanside communities. Anyone who’s looking to make their neighbourhood stronger, you don’t need to be part of a non-profit or have any special experience. All you need is an idea to help people connect. Some examples of past projects include things like community meals, block parties, emergency preparedness, art workshops, cultural celebrations, neighbourhood gardens and skill-sharing events. If it brings people together, helps neighbours get to know each other, builds belonging, then it’s a great fit for neighbourhood small grants. You can apply now for up to $500 for your project, and the process is simple. Just head to parksvillequalicumfoundation.com, click on neighbourhood small grants, and create an account to fill out a short online form. And don’t forget that we’re here to help along the way. Please reach out if you have any trouble. Applications close on October 31st, so now is the time to share your idea. We can’t wait to see the creative community-building projects that our Oceanside community members come forward with this fall. Thanks again to the Pulse for helping us spread the word.
Windsor Plywood Advertisement: The Pulse Community Podcast is brought to you in part by Windsor Plywood in French Creek, specializing in hard-to-source interior and exterior home finishing products, including flooring, doors and mouldings and exterior project materials such as yellow cedar. Windsor Plywood French Creek carries high-quality, responsibly sourced products and are committed to providing outstanding value and personalized one-on-one service to all of our customers—homeowners, do-it-yourselfers, renovators, builders, designers, craftsmen, and contractors. Regardless of the type or size of your project, Windsor can help you bring your vision to life from start to finish. Let Windsor Plywood in French Creek help you with your renovation, new build, or building project. Visit them online or call 752-3122.
Tablet Pharmacy Advertisement: Ever find yourself waiting endlessly at a big box pharmacy feeling like just another number? There’s a better way. At Tablet Pharmacy, they provide the personalized service you deserve. Check their competitive prices online at tabletpharmacy.ca before you even leave home. They offer free delivery and blister packaging options to make managing your medications easier than ever. With convenient locations in Parksville, Qualicum Beach, and now open in Nanaimo near the Brick, Tablet Pharmacy has been serving Vancouver Island since 2019. Stop being just a prescription number. Experience the Tablet Pharmacy difference today. Visit them online and check their prices at tabletpharmacy.ca.
Dave Graham: So Peter, we promised meaningful conversations, and this next one with Rod Mickleburgh about his new book on John Horgan is no exception. John passed away this summer and this memoir is a remarkably candid account of a politician who understood that leadership isn’t about being above people, it’s about being among them. Here’s Marilyn.
Marilyn: In the green room is Rod Mickleburgh, co-author of “John Horgan in His Own Words.” This deeply candid memoir captures the late BC premier’s remarkable journey from troubled teenager to beloved leader, revealing the man behind the politics through intimate final interviews.
Peter McCully: Thanks for making time for us on the podcast today, Rod.
Rod Mickleburgh: Glad to be here.
Peter McCully: I just finished reading the John Horgan book that you co-authored. How did you become the one who sat down with John Horgan to capture his story? Did you have a long history together?
Rod Mickleburgh: No, but we had a bit of a history together. We knew each other. I was good friends with his chief of staff, Geoff Meggs, way before politics. We were at university together and we’ve just maintained a friendship over the years. When I did a history of the BC labour movement, BC unions, John Horgan spoke at the launch. I don’t know whether he really read the book, but he was good at pretending he read it. He was great and he loved the crowd. He loved all these people there that were glad to see him, and we just liked each other, right? How do you not like him? So he knew about me. He’d sometimes come to a BC Federation of Labour Convention. I’d say hi. He’d say hi, that kind of thing. So when it was suggested to Horgan by a literary agent, John Pearce, whether he was interested in a book, John didn’t know. But it started with a series of interviews at Royal Roads University and they set up the facilities, they filmed them. I came over as the journalist that was chosen, plus I didn’t have a day job being long retired. We did two full days of pretty substantial interviews on the big issues of his time as premier. And I acted as a journalist. I wasn’t a co-author or anything at that point. I pushed him on the issues. “John, are you sure that’s right? My research shows that wasn’t exactly right,” you know, that kind of thing. I was a journalist in those, and over two days we did side-to-side, all the big issues, and they went pretty well. I have to say he was candid, he was relaxed, he wanted to talk about them, but it was very unclear what was gonna happen to those interviews. There was a sense that they’d be there for future historians, but that hadn’t really been finalized. Then he did a podcast, a rival podcast, “Hotel Pacifico,” in which he was really good. He was refreshing, he was himself, and we looked at the transcript of that and we used a lot of that to approach Harbour Publishing, Douglas & McIntyre. “Hey, interested in a book? We think John Horgan can do a book,” and the answer was yes. And so I just continued on. Once that happened, we needed to fill in all the blanks. We had him on all the good issues, the substantive issues during his time as premier, but we didn’t have his early life, his early years in politics, his time in Germany, there was a lot to cover. And so we did those. And John Horgan and I liked each other. We liked sports—half of our time was spent talking about sports. We had a lot in common, but we did a bunch of Zoom sessions from Germany. By then, he was the ambassador to Germany. They went well. He loved talking about his early life. Then all of a sudden they came to a halt when he was diagnosed with cancer, and then we resumed them miraculously. He said they’d fixed him up with a machine that doesn’t make him sound like Stephen Hawking. He maintained his sense of humour and he thought what he called “our gab fests” could continue. And we did four more Zoom sessions from his hospital bed in Berlin, and then he got the really bad news that there was no hope and the cancer had spread and that was that. And that’s when we came to an end. But it just happened that I had this great privilege of being chosen to do these interviews and to work with John on this book, and we got along. Just in my own defence, I’ll say, you know, I’m a veteran journalist. I’ve been around, I’ve got context for BC politics. I pay attention to stuff, so I just wasn’t a pushover—”Say whatever you want, John.” I was involved.
Peter McCully: Early in the book, you review his year that he worked at the Ocean Falls Pulp Mill, and that seems pivotal in reading the book that it probably taught him about global economics, addiction, working-class life. How did that experience shape his governing philosophy, do you suppose?
Rod Mickleburgh: You know, I’m really glad you brought up that chapter on Ocean Falls because with my background I knew what Ocean Falls was. It wasn’t a place like Campbell River or these other pulp mill towns. It’s isolated up on the BC coast and it’s just a totally unique community. And so I was curious about his time there. I’m not sure other people would’ve picked up on that, but I really wanted to hear about what it was like for John in Ocean Falls, ’cause I had covered union disputes when I was a labour reporter and Ocean Falls was always part of it. He spent a year there earning money for his university tuition and that was a real experience. He’s totally working class, relating to people. He’s on his own. He is young and I think it did shape him. He got to see people up close. It wasn’t easy for him. He worked hard and he saw bad things. It wasn’t a perfect community. There was a lot of drugs. There was a lot of gambling. He saw guys just gamble their paycheques and he said, “We used to play poker. That’s not for me anymore.” It gave him a dose of reality that he took with him, and I really liked that chapter. I really wanted him to talk about that. The other thing it did is in one of those incredible coincidences, his whole life changed because of him being at Ocean Falls and deciding what university to go to. And it’s a long story. I’m not gonna give it all away, but without him being in Ocean Falls and a particular thing that happened to him when he was considering where to go to university, his whole life would’ve been different because he ended up at Trent University in Peterborough of all places. On his first day at Trent University, he met Ellie, his wife who became his soulmate for 45 years. So these things happen and without Ocean Falls, that would not have happened. BC has had two pulp mill premiers. Who are they?
Peter McCully: Are you asking?
Rod Mickleburgh: I’ll give you the answer. It’s John Horgan and Dan Miller, who was a premier briefly, and of course spent a lot of time working in the Prince Rupert Pulp Mill.
Peter McCully: John Horgan was the only premier I’ve ever heard of who rode the public bus from Victoria to Sooke to meet his constituents. He even put his advertising schedule on the paper and you wrote about that, and you talk about him meeting everyone from a young soldier heading to Afghanistan, to farmers coming in from the fields. What did that approach tell you as you’re writing the book about his political philosophy?
Rod Mickleburgh: I think it says a lot. And he also has a joke. He said the winding road was so bad he had to take Gravol for the whole trip because he’d be standing up for “Whoa, whoa” around another corner. And he was very proud that when they were government, they could fix the Sooke Road. Anyway, it showed his approach to people. He was open to people. He wanted to hear from people. He tried town hall meetings. He thought that would be a big thing, but it was the same old people standing up on the same old issues, droning on and on, and he was just tired and there was no real interchange. So he had this idea of riding the bus and there he would be. He had a chance to talk to people one-on-one, and they knew he was there. There was nothing riding—it was a good pun—there was nothing riding on it. He enjoyed them. He only finally stopped because once he became premier, it was a little more difficult and so on. But I don’t know many politicians that would do that. And there you are. There’s no aides around. You’re there with the people on the bus for the long ride to Sooke. And as you mentioned, he just happened to meet this young fellow who was about to head to Afghanistan and really had a long, serious talk with him. And that broadens your experience as a politician. You meet everyone that’s on the bus and you don’t meet the businessman on the bus. You meet the ordinary folks that are taking the bus. And he loved his constituents. He loved his riding. He was frustrated being in opposition for so long because he couldn’t do more for the constituency because, you know, the way it works, the government does stuff for their own ridings where they have the local MLAs, and Sooke was getting not much because their MLA was NDP and he felt badly about that.
Peter McCully: Speaking of politics, John credits Andrew Weaver and the Green partnership as essential to his government’s achievements. And what do you suppose that suggests about the potential for collaborative politics in this very polarized era?
Rod Mickleburgh: It’s interesting. One thing about the book is that in an odd way, things have changed so much and things are even more deeply polarized than they used to be, and the anger and the rage and people not listening and pontificating, that has really escalated. That hadn’t really taken off when John stepped down as premier. So in a sense, the book looks back to a different era. You’re talking about different eras, maybe only three or four years ago, but the speed of change is escalating. He believed in collaborative government. He liked working with the Greens until it fell apart at the end. And with the premiers, he was for a long time the only NDP premier with all these conservatives and so on. But they were working on serious issues during COVID and wanting the government to fund more in health care. He got along with Doug Ford. He got along with Scott Moe. He got along with Jason Kenney because he thought you look for areas of agreement, you don’t just pound the table and say it has to be this way. And here’s what I think good government is—looking for agreement among people who may disagree. They had a great opportunity to do stuff, but it did fall apart right at the end when Andrew Weaver left, ’cause he really bonded with Andrew Weaver. A couple of bros. I think he was nostalgic about those years when there was a minority government because of that collaborative nature and working with people you don’t agree with on everything and to find a way forward, and he thought that was good. I guess I’ve been negative about this—couldn’t happen anymore—but maybe it could. I don’t know a lot about Manitoba, but Wab Kinew seems to be doing that in Manitoba, still popular with all these tough issues. But that was something John did believe in. It wasn’t “my way or the highway.”
Peter McCully: In reading the book, I think you’ve done a great job of capturing who the man was. John was remarkably candid about losing his temper, yelling at Adrian Dix during COVID. He blew up over Site C with Andrew Weaver. How do you suppose he balanced being what he called “the Happy Warrior” with those moments of frustration?
Rod Mickleburgh: Those are great stories when he lost his temper, but one of his points in actually being candid about those—those were the only two times I really lost my temper and really shouted at people. In his view, this was a good thing. He just showed what a Happy Warrior he is—only twice. But he did lose his temper. Not all of the times he lost his temper are in the book, right? You’d hear things about sometimes behind the scenes he could lose his temper and he would put it down to being Irish, being frustrated. And I think all those years in opposition, he really found that frustrating. And this is when he started to be short-tempered, when he just was exasperated. “Is this gonna be my life? The best day is I might get a story above the fold criticizing the government. Well, what’s that?” And of course, the Liberals baited him because he did have a short fuse. And we all remember the famous radio debate during the 2017 political election when Christy Clark baited him successfully, and Horgan blew up and used some unfortunate terminology during the debate. That was a really low point in that campaign. But he resurrected himself and his view is he was always the Happy Warrior. The temper and all that stuff was the aberration. The great thing when he became premier is he could go back to being himself because he was doing things for people and he liked doing that. He could actually accomplish something rather than being in opposition, which really frustrated him. So if you ask John Horgan and he says, “Oh, okay, I may fly off the handle at times, but really I’m an affable, happy-go-lucky guy. That’s the real John Horgan.” And a lot of that’s in the book, ’cause I think there’s truth to that, despite the fact, let’s not kid ourselves, he could fly off the handle and he’d say, “Oh, it’s just because I’m Irish.”
Peter McCully: And he also writes that he was falling into a pile of horse dung and coming out looking as if he’d never had a better day. So do you suppose it was luck versus preparation in his political rise?
Rod Mickleburgh: He attributes a lot to luck. And one of the examples of that luck, first of all, the meeting of Ellie, that was just a remarkable series of coincidences that produced meeting his soulmate, as he always called her for 45 years. Another is that he was leader of the opposition after Adrian Dix’s electoral disaster. He didn’t want to be leader. He said, “It’s time for younger people. I’ve got no answers. I’m tired of it. It’s not our time. It’s for younger people.” He really had to be pressured and it wasn’t an act. He didn’t want to run, and he really had to be convinced to do it. So then he took over and he floundered. He didn’t feel he was going anywhere. He didn’t have a lot of confidence in himself, which is odd when you think of the confident person we think of John Horgan as. But internally, he wasn’t feeling that. He was ready to step down if somebody thought they could do better. The election was coming up and at a particularly dark moment, he opened his address book and out came the card of Bob Dewar. People had suggested “Maybe you should get this guy from Manitoba. He’s pretty good as a strategist.” And Horgan had said, “Oh yeah, okay, fine.” But he didn’t really act on it. And then at this low point, Bob Dewar’s card fell out of his address book and he thought, “I’ll phone him. What have I got to lose?” So he phones Bob Dewar and Bob Dewar says, “I thought you were supposed to have phoned me six months ago.” And Horgan made some lame excuse. But Bob Dewar was essential, I think, to the turnaround in John Horgan as leader of the NDP. And he gives him full credit in the book. And he says, “When Bob Dewar arrived, I stopped sinking. The ship stopped sinking and started to do better.” And so he would attribute that to luck. “Why did that happen at that particular moment when I needed it so badly?” He, of course, took advantage of these opportunities that he was lucky that they came along when they did, but he took advantage of them, and that’s always the point with good fortune. You can’t just rely on good fortune, you have to make something of it, which he did.
Peter McCully: John wrote that BC is filled with New Democrats who don’t know they’re Democrats yet. As somebody who governed from the centre-left while maintaining his popularity, did he offer any advice for progressive politicians trying to build those winning coalitions that he was successful at?
Rod Mickleburgh: I think he does, and he wanted to leave some sort of legacy for future politicians, and some of it we’ve talked about already is that you don’t pound the podium and say you’re right, and you don’t subscribe to an ideology. You want to make things better for people and there are ways forward to do that. You also have to build relationships with people. You can’t be distant. You can’t just be on a podium. You can’t just be scoring political points. You have to be genuine and reach out to people. As we know, massive resource projects happened under the NDP. He thought there was a reputation—the NDP was always against things. They didn’t build anything. “So why would the building trades want to support the NDP? What are they building? They’re against everything.” He believed in building things, good projects. He opposed Kinder Morgan, for instance, for environmental reasons, but he wanted to leave an NDP that was pragmatic, that wasn’t ideological, that wasn’t just against things. And as he said, “Yeah, I’ve been outside the building protesting and yelling at the government inside. You don’t accomplish anything outside the building. You have to be inside the building to accomplish something.” Sure, take the high road and oppose stuff, but you want to be inside the building so you can do things for people. That was big for him. He moved on from the protests that he may have done when he was younger and wanted to get inside the building. He eventually did that and was very successful because he took that philosophy with him. He wasn’t ideological, he was pragmatic.
Peter McCully: The book ends with his appointment as ambassador to Germany. You’re still doing interviews in the hospital during his final cancer battle. What did that diplomatic role represent for him personally?
Rod Mickleburgh: I think he was looking forward to this new chapter in his life. This was different, right? And he was hoping he could take the same skills he’d used as premier to represent Canada and to give Canada’s point of view and to talk with other ambassadors, other countries, and we’ll never really know because of course it was cut short after about six months. But I think he was enjoying it and I think he was already making a mark. It’s a different role. It takes you some time to get used to something like that where you can’t just say what you want, where you have to give Canada’s line. Even if he didn’t agree with what the Canadian government is doing, you wouldn’t hear any of that from him, ’cause he said when Justin Trudeau approached him with the offer, it was a very familiar situation in Germany at the time. It’s not that situation now. So once again, we can speculate how he would’ve handled that. But there was a social democratic government in Germany that was propped up by the Green Party, exactly what he’d faced in British Columbia when he took over. So he was thinking maybe the government would like some advice from me, but it was cut short. So we’ll never really know what kind of a mark he would’ve made. But I think his staff really liked him. The other ambassadors were starting to get to know him because he’s humorous and he’s engaging. He’d already made some solid friendships with the Finnish ambassador ’cause they love sports, that kind of thing. He would’ve been a personable, hands-on ambassador without forgetting what his job was.
Peter McCully: A big personality was John Horgan.
Rod Mickleburgh: It was a lot of fun doing this book with John. I feel so blessed that I had a chance to get to know him so well. And we liked each other. Some of it was like just sitting in a bar, just talking, and sometimes you have a finished product. It had to be toned down a bit, ’cause he just would get carried away and I never had a chance, of course, to go to him and say, “Do you really want this in the book? Isn’t this a little too tough? Or your language is a little unparliamentary here?” That kind of thing. He may have stuck with it, who knows? But it was difficult making those decisions. But he was the genuine article and people sensed that. And we all know the number of people would say, “I don’t like the NDP, but I liked John Horgan” because they sensed he was genuine, not just your ordinary politician.
Peter McCully: I think you’ve done a great job of capturing the man on the pages. Thank you, Peter, and thank John Horgan. We were lucky to have him.
Dave Graham: Thanks to Rod Mickleburgh for sharing those stories about John Horgan. Now, there was a man who never forgot what it was like to struggle, to be on the outside. As we learn from the book, the best leaders benefit from a perspective earned through adversity.
Peter McCully: Before we go, we have some news about our Skookum Kids stories to accompany our growing library of stories about the Mellow Submarine and Gracie the Eskimo dog. We now feature colouring pages.
Dave Graham: Yes, while the kids listen to stories about Captain Dave and First Mate Larry the Lobster aboard their submarine and about Gracie and her young companion Peter, they can download and print and colour along with the stories.
Peter McCully: It’s a great way to keep the stories going beyond just listening. Kids can engage with the characters and places in a hands-on way. You’ll find it all at thepulsecommunity.ca, also at skookumkids.com, Apple, Amazon, Spotify, iHeart, and YouTube.
Dave Graham: Wow, that is so cool. Downloadable, episode-specific colouring pages. Oh, and kids, don’t be afraid to colour outside the lines.
Peter McCully: I think the idea, Dave, is to stay inside the lines. There’s a lesson in the process of staying within the design.
Dave Graham: Okay, so kids learn the lesson and then colour outside the lines.
Peter McCully: But if you can’t stay within the lines, there’s no order. It becomes confusion and mayhem.
Dave Graham: That’s my middle name.
Peter McCully: What? Confusion or mayhem?
Dave Graham: Exactly.
Peter McCully: Hey, thanks for joining us. See you next time.
Rockin’ Rhonda & The Uptown Blues Band: Here comes Peter, here comes Dave, oh listen. Bringing stories, making waves. No missing. Spinning tales in the podcast cave. So to speak. Laughs and insights everywhere. What a treat. Peter and Dave. They’re on the mics alright. Join the ride. It’s gonna feel just right.
